Hannah talks with NYC Brewers Guild Executive Director and Pink Boots Society NYC Vice Chair Ann Reilly. Hannah sipped an Orange La Croix and Ann enjoyed an Iced Tea... 'cause sometimes ya gotta take the afternoon off of beer!
NYC Brewers Guild Website: NYCBrewed.com
Michael James Jackson Foundation Website: themjf.org
Learn more about The Pink Boots Society here!
And also check out Barley's Angels and Girls Pint Out.
Groovy music by Megan Bagala, and art by Sabrina Rain at The Hoppiest Shop
Hannah (00:06):
Hi, Beer Friends. Welcome back to Brews with Broads. I'm your host Hannah Kiem. Happy Women's History Month, Y'all. I am so thrilled to bring you my conversation with Ann Reilly this week, the woman, the myth, the legend. She is the executive director of the New York city brewers Guild. The vice-chair of the New York city chapter of pink boots society and the moderator and creator of multiple New York city women in Beer. communities. She wears a lot of hats. Ann and I spoke back in December, but I'm particularly excited to bring you our conversation this week, because we are currently in the middle of New York city beer week. It runs until March 7th and while we aren't celebrating in person like we have in the past with big events, Ann and her team have organized an incredible scavenger hunt, as well as a virtual closing gala on March 6th. Of course I will link the New York city brewers Guild website, NYCBrewed.com. So you can go find out more about how to participate. I love learning about Ann's pivot into craft beer, what in her opinion makes a good beer festival and how we can stand to improve them, and what an incredible advocate she's been for breweries restaurants and bars during the pandemic, I found our conversation so inspiring, and I think you will too. Cheers!
Hannah (01:33):
All right, Ann Riley, welcome to Brews with Broads.
Ann (01:38):
Thank you for having me.
Hannah (01:39):
I'm so excited. Well, first of all, usually I like to enjoy a beer with my guests, but it's the day. It's not even like the aff- it's like 1:30. So, you know, I have nothing to do with my life, but you do. Um, so I have brought a LaCroix. I just recently learned this LaCroix rhymes with enjoy. Did you bring anything to enjoy today?
Ann (02:04):
I have some ice tea and I've been, uh, definitely participating well, utilizing, I guess is a better word utilizing my soda stream a lot during this. Um, although I will readily admit they're having days that come 1:30, I'm ready for a beer.
Hannah (02:19):
I agree with you. Yes, it's truly this never-ending. Um, well, I'm going to crack this in the interest of tradition. Let's see if I can one handed here. Okay. And I will say it's orange flavored. My husband bought that, which I might lose some followers or whatever here, but it's the worst flavor of LaCroix. And you may "at me" on that. You may "at me." So we're here to talk about your beer journey. I'm so excited. Cause I feel like you wear many hats. You have your hand in a lot of pots as it were. Um, but first I want to know about you as a human. Like, what's your story? Where are you from? Where did you, what did you study in school? Hit me with the, hit me with the bio.
Ann (03:00):
Yes. So I, uh, was born in Westchester and grew up here in the New York tri-state area. Well actually just New York and Connecticut. I've spent pretty much my entire life with the exception of college here. I went to one of the many art schools in Boston. I a long while back my, uh, career before beer was, um, art direction and marketing. And while yeah, utilize that, well, I guess more than a bit of a considerable amount and what I've been doing in the beer world as well. Um, I came from a pretty varied background there. Um, I started, um, pretty much graphic design and advertising.
Hannah (03:34):
And so right after school, you dove into that world?
Ann (03:37):
They did pretty much you name it, anything having to do with design that began with a P I was involved everything from- I got my start in publishing, um, both newspapers and magazines when people were still buying and reading those
Hannah (03:52):
RIP Print Media
Ann (03:53):
Yeah. From there, I moved into package design and then package and product design, and also worked pharma while that was still making a lot of money and spending a ridiculous amount of money on well designed things
Hannah (04:07):
That is wild that's actually, my husband works in pharma advertising. And even just to hear, to hear the zooms, it's like, wow, this is a world that I never knew existed.
Ann (04:18):
It is. It's, it's definitely interesting. I mean, yeah, like that, I guess having had such a broad career, um, in another Avenue, um, moving into beer, it was one of those things where I recognize that you reach a point in your design career where as a freelancer, you're not going to get paid much more regardless of your level of experience. And I recognize that I guess I was capping out of what I wanted to be doing and wanted to figure out a way that I could, um, utilize my skillset and parlay that into working in a environment that had been... Hobby Isn't a great word either, but, um, a strong interest and, you know, for a long time, like having, like I said, having gone to art school, I had always thought maybe I could work in some kind of, you know, nonprofit capacity in museum or art collection world, but that's a very insular community. And exceptionally hard to break into if you didn't grow up with a family that donates regularly museums.
Hannah (05:17):
Oh, weird. You didn't didn't we all,
Ann (05:22):
If small donations count sure. But uh,
Hannah (05:26):
Pay what you can day, right?
Ann (05:27):
Yeah. Yeah. That's kind of donation that I have been able to make. Um, so, you know, having been excited about craft beer for quite a number of years and, um, you know, recognizing that, you know, it definitely had a taste for it. And at the time, you know, expanding my palette and trying to figure out what made different beer styles different than each other. I initially started interviewing for sales positions, but quickly realized after spending a number of hours with different people in the industry, both in an interview capacity, as well as you spending time with them, that that probably wasn't the best role for my skill set. So instead I was like, all right, how can I utilize my existing skills into a career in beer? And, you know, started as a freelancer, doing all kinds of promotion, um, started getting really involved with social media as that started to take off and, you know, work that into eventually a full-time after doing a lot of freelance working into a full-time. My first full-time gig in beer was when Five Boroughs, uh, was just about to open, came on board with them to help launch and get them opened. And then that was in the summer of 2017. And in September of 2019, I came on board as my role with the Guild, the New York city brewers Guild, I guess I should specify that.
Hannah (06:42):
Yes, I know the New York city brewers Guild. And what's your role there? What's your title?
Ann (06:47):
New York city brewers Guild has always been exclusively volunteer. Um, I'm our first hire and I'm still, you know, I'm, part-time freelance for now. That was not the original plan, but, you know, pandemic world things change. Um, so this is something that even when I was on the board and even before I was on the board as a board member at large, um, I was involved with guilt and we'd been talking for years that we needed someone who was the main contact. So starting in 2019, came on board in this role as executive director. And basically what I did was knowing that there was a role needed for someone to be the one person that anyone reached out to be it a member brewery, Be it someone who's interested in being an allied member, any member of our community, you know, be it, our partners, the bars, restaurants, that kind of thing, even press.Just having one person who is a constant resource and a consistent source. So basically put together a job proposal. What I proposed is very different than what I've been doing and what we had anticipated me doing, because as I said, I came on board in September of 2019. Um, my first event was our Blocktoberfest . Um, our last Blocktoberfest at The Well, unfortunately, and then immediately started ramping up for our opening bash and beer week. And then in literally a week after beer week, things shut down.
Hannah (08:10):
It wasn't I was looking back at for some reason on my camera roll. And like one of the last photos I have from the before times is from the Opening Bash, which was amazing.
Ann (08:22):
Yeah. It was a really great, great one this year, too. Yeah, that, that was something that my original role with the Guild was to expand our events. And we were planning on working on a number of smaller events. In addition to those two large ones, bringing in a way to further engage our membership because the, the mission of the, um, the Guild is essentially to promote and advocate for New York city breweries. Um, cause you know, we are typically a city of 9 million people and there are under there about 40 breweries in New York city. So anytime someone says York city is saturated with breweries. I'm like, that's not possible. We have 9 million people here. And then the greater Metro area is easily, you know, 13, 14 million, the state of New York is 20 million.
Hannah (09:09):
Right. I was actually talking to LeAnn from TALEA and this was maybe two years ago at Beers without Beards. And she cited when they were doing their market research, cited a statistic about an, I am not a numbers person, so I'm not going to remember it, but suffice it to say exactly what you're saying, that like, if you look at a place like Boulder or like Austin or something, the breweries per capita, there is so much higher than it is here because we do have so many more people.
Ann (09:39):
I was even amazed. And I guess, you know, obviously geography, wasn't my strong point in school.
Hannah (09:43):
We're artists.
Ann (09:44):
Yeah, yeah. That Maine's population is like a million and the number of breweries in Maine, I'm like, okay, I don't want to hear about saturation.
Hannah (09:55):
A lot of that. Like you think of Maine. I definitely think of Maine, especially like as an East coast....
Ann (10:01):
Yeah. A beacon for beer kind of thing.
Hannah (10:04):
Exactly. But I've never have given thought to how many people actually live there.
Ann (10:08):
Yeah.
Hannah (10:08):
So you mentioned that the Guild's mission is to advocate...Like what does the advocacy side look like for you on your end?
Ann (10:17):
Yeah. And that that's making sure. Um, well, I guess I can talk about what we're doing now because the before times seems so long ago, but yeah, for the past nine months, and especially in the beginning and now that our governor is back to doing his daily briefings, that's now part of my day, um, early on that was a part every single day to make sure we knew what was happening. Um, and you know, we're, we're about to face as we record this potentially more closings, um, rollbacks as early as next week. So advocating for right now, that's what that means is making sure that all of our members are fully aware of what their requirements are because there's so many different inspections happening now. It's not just the SLA. Now you have the department of health, even if you don't serve food. Department of health is coming in doing COVID inspections, department of buildings, department of transportation, depending on your existing occupancy, it could be the fire department.
Ann (11:17):
It's just, you know, it's making sure that all of our member breweries who vary and scale considerably from small to barrel system to, um, you know, breweries that are brewing 120 barrels at a time kind of thing. Well, obviously not at once, but fermenting 120 barrels at a time, making sure that they all have the information that they need in a timely manner, in a way that they can access. So they're not, you know, flipping through 17 emails for, Oh my God. Where is that form? That when the SLA guy comes and tells me, I need to be offering certain types of food, I could say, no, we're manufacturing. This is what we're required to offer. I know that seems very different from what the original idea was, but that's one of the ways. And also keeping in touch with city government as well as I work in tandem with Paul Leone, who's the executive director of the state brewers association.
Ann (12:07):
And then I'm also on a weekly call with, um, national Guild leaders, both through, you know, States and like we are a regional and there's typically about 65 of us, um, different executive directors of different guilds and associations. And then that has been exponentially helpful. Like I said, I stepped into this role a little over a year ago. They've just started a mentoring program and I was just assigned, I'm a mentee, obviously I'm pretty new at that. Um, my mentor is Sean from Maine. So that'll be, uh, you know, a great partnership because he's been doing this for awhile.
Hannah (12:39):
It's amazing to get to learn. Like we said, from someone who has been in the game and in a, such a beacon state. Just to hear you speak about it, it is fascinating to think. I wonder, like coming into this industry from a design background and sort of being still in that lane and like events and marketing, did you ever think you would be so like deeply involved in sort of the nitty gritty, like government, the laws and things like that?
Ann (13:04):
No, not at all. And that was one of the things when I wrote my proposal for this role, we were relying on the fact that we are a regional Guild, not the state Guild and that, you know, Paul of the state and his team who are phenomenal. And then the BA, which is national, that they would be taken care of anything late legislative wise. And we would be focusing on promoting the fact that, you know, New York city should be a beer destination when we can all travel. Again, the fact that, you know, we have so many breweries in such a large city that are so close together, working on that aspect. Like that is something that we are for 2021. That's one of our goals is to put together tourists. People can put together themselves like, you know, use the, uh, NYC brewers Guild and website NYCBrewed.com as a regular resource. In the beginning of the pandemic, we were posting everybody's hours and how they were offering to get beer to you. And now that we're looking to roll back, that's going to be updated, especially with people not knowing, you know, how can we support small local business, um, you know, obviously by beer, but by rich, by, you know, um, gift cards and using that as a resource for that too,
Hannah (14:11):
That especially in the time of social media and we're all, at least I am just scrolling and scrolling. It's so easy to like scroll past a small business, particularly at a brewery that you love and maybe not realize like, Oh, they changed their hours or I should buy a gift card. So to have that as a resource is really great. And speaking of merch, I know there's NYC brewers Guild, merch that you can buy on that website as well. Right?
Ann (14:33):
Yeah. So for the holidays, we are doing holiday beer boxes that we are shipping to 28 States, which is kind of exciting that we're able to ship New York city beer to more than half the country. And then we also have a physical merch, um, you know, t-shirts hoodies, tote bags, uh, koozies. And we, um, in addition to the New York city brewers Guild branded, um, stuff, we've partnered with a designer from California who created the, I don't drink beer with racists graphics. So we have a whole bunch of that merchandise too, that initially when we first launched it, we were donating a hundred percent of the proceeds to the NAACP legal defense and education fund. And as the New York city brewers Guild has been working on with some of our members for over a year now, um, a partner to the Guild is going to be a internship program that will lead to a direct path to employment for, um, People of Color. Um, so that's where those funds are now going to go towards that program and towards our educational program, like one of the things that the Guild provides for our members, um, used to call the member benefits. But now we do a lot of education along with just, you know, filling you in on what boiler person knows your boiler system kind of thing. That's obviously some kind of a member benefit, but addition to that, everything from, um, awfully retraining to we're working to do human resource type training, everything from being sensitive to obviously being a nightlife, that was something that we offered quite a while back. And we had asked even before New York state, New York city had required that people have sexual harassment training offering that in what that looks like in a nightlife space. Cause that's very different than somebody working in an office. So these are the kinds of programs that, um, we are putting together actively putting together anti-racist training so that anyone who has a question, they don't feel that they're going to be ostracized for asking it, making sure that people are getting the correct information is so imperative.
Hannah (16:34):
Wow. That is some juiciness right there. First of all I know from following you on social media personally, and also @NYCCraftBeer is your handle, right?
Ann (16:48):
@NYCCraftBeer is my, yeah, beer instagram
Hannah (16:49):
You are so active posting, obviously posting is just the start of it, but posting and like following through on all of this activism and awareness. And I think it's so great that you are taking it into the professional space, into the beer- operationally the beer space, just because I know from working both in like the corporate restaurant world and in small beer bars and breweries HR is not always a thing in these smaller breweries. Right?
Ann (17:16):
For Sure. Yeah. I mean, many of our breweries have three employees, so how are they possibly going to have an HR person?
Hannah (17:21):
Right. And I mean, both of the things you just hit on one with being actively anti-racist is obviously such an important thing. We have to prioritize as a culture at large, but also it's really interesting to talk about that in the space of beer, because, you know, it's not only traditionally, mostly CIS men who are in the positions of power, but CIS White men and White people. So I would love to know your take on how can not only, you know, there's all different ways of kind of saying the same metaphor. Like not only making sure the door is open or that there's a seat at the table, but that like people are feeling welcome to come in the door to sit at the table. You know what I mean?
Ann (18:04):
Yeah. Like actively inviting people to be a part of things, um, and reaching outside of our typical scopes. And so we have a number of committees within the Guild as well. And one of them, obviously we switch it up year to year, not well over the years, I guess is a better way to describe how we switch it up. Um, events is always consistent and, you know, as is education, uh, marketing, um, and one of the things we had done previously was, uh, looking to do like, you know, tourism and enthusiasts, and those have kind of been wrapped into other committees, but we have, uh, made it a priority, our inclusion and diversity. And that's also that community is also part of making sure that our own personal like regulations, bylaws, best practices. Those are all rolled into one committee. And that right now, actually for this entire year, even pre pandemic has been our most active committee. Um, as I said, you know, we've been working with, um, Guild members on that internship program. There's three people on that committee have been actively working on that all along. Um, you know, Chris Gandsy of Daleview Biscuits and Beer, uh, Chris Innis of Rockaway and Flint, Whistler of Randolph, the three of them have spearheaded this project and really taken it forward, um, was leaps and bounds. The idea of it being long lasting, not just a Hey, um, you know, when they started talking about this even well before Beer Week and putting it into action, that is a game plan where year one, this is what'll happen. And then by year five, this is what's happening. And ideally partnering with educational programs so that, you know, either, um, high school students or college students can make this a part of their curriculum, things like that.
Hannah (19:43):
It really speaks to the common excuse that a lot of people use across industries that it's a pipeline issue, right. That like you can't say if the pipeline issue like, well, we didn't have any applicants of color, if you are actively getting education into their high schools. That's amazing. Yeah.
Ann (19:58):
That's something that we're hoping to work in tandem because I'm sure you're well aware of Garrett Oliver's program, the Michael Jackson foundation, and, you know, hopefully we can work directly with them as well. Cause that that's a phenomenal program that will definitely be parallel to what this program is working to do. Right.
Hannah (20:15):
And with that, his goal is to prioritize scholarships and education for People of Color, to work in breweries in all capacities - or just brewing?
Ann (20:22):
Brewing and distilling.
Hannah (20:24):
That's really cool. So going back to going to...back to like the events element, obviously pre pandemic, that was a thing we will see in the future, what that means, but what do you feel like in your experience makes a good beer event? Like what have you found to be most
Ann (20:39):
Festival? Ooh, success. Yeah. And I guess I was going to comment on what I've been excited to see like yeah. Um, to me, it's when you're at a beer event that especially here in New York city where everyone there is representative of New York city, it's not just, as you were saying, you know, the bearded white dude, who is attending,
Hannah (21:00):
We love them,!
Ann (21:04):
Absolutely! But yeah Beers without Beards, the first one, they did the first two here in New York. And obviously this year that also had to be a virtual festival, but that, and the last two Blocktoberfests I've noticed have drawn a different crowd than the typical beer festival crowd that you would see. It was much more diverse. And I guess all broad reaching to where, when you didn't have people coming up asking for the same style over and over again, people were interested in all kinds of styles and you know, like beer, everybody uses this analogy, but beer is people and people are different. Not everybody's going to like the same style of beer. And luckily there are countless styles of beer for the countless types of people in the world. So, um, and I was thinking about it with an industry friend recently too, like for when you're working in the industry, working a beer Fest, especially if you do one that's an all day, like it's two sessions that can be a lot. And the preparation is what takes a lot of time, making sure, you know, that beer is ready, everything you need for your table or your booth, all that, everything from setting up the jockey box to having merch or whatever you need. But the best part is always seeing, you know, colleagues, friends and meeting new people and introducing people to different beers or styles or just the culture that comes along with beer. That's always, that's something that a lot of us actually really do miss.
Hannah (22:22):
I totally agree with you. Yes. I love beer and drinking it and the effects, but more over is the community, which obviously you're a pillar of the beer community. Right? Like, I,
Ann (22:36):
Thank you
Hannah (22:36):
Of course! I really mean it it's so much, like you said, more fun to taste with people and to get to meet new people at opening bash this year. I actually, I'm from St. Louis. And so I'm always really excited about the beer scene there. And I met the people from Rockwell beer and I had never heard of it. And so, and they were great. And I had over the summer, drove home to see my mom and I got to go there and like make that connection. And it's all about those human connections, which is the best part.
Ann (23:02):
Absolutely.
Hannah (23:03):
Speaking of those connections you are also, and, and your "pillar hood"
Ann (23:08):
*laughs*
Hannah (23:10):
Is that weird to have someone tell you you're a pillar? Yeah, I think so. It's Okay. When I talked to Mary Izett, I called her an icon like 45 times. And, uh, it was awkward.
Ann (23:22):
I'm sure her face was probably bright red
Hannah (23:22):
We were not on video, but probably cause that's a weird thing to say to someone. But it's true.
Ann (23:25):
Yes it is
Hannah (23:28):
Talk to me about the NYC women in beer community and how you facilitated that.
Ann (23:34):
I think, I mean, Mary and I had been talking about it for quite a while and it actually on my Instagram memories that came up that, uh, Patrick Morse who used to be with flagship brewing out in Staten Island. He had worked with a thing out at Eagle rock in California before coming to New York and there they had what they called the women's craft beer society. So he had approached a few of us and said, Hey, I'd really like to start this here. And initially, you know, at the time our local Pink Boots chapter was not active. So this, that was one of the things that kind of, kick-started us thinking. Let's do New York city women in beer as an umbrella kind of thing where, because uh, Pink Boots has requirements of, and I believe it's still 25% of your income needs to come from beer. And here in New York, we're very different than other parts of the country. Where, um, for instance, I know in some States, most of the women who are members of pink boots are either brewers or beer reps. Whereas here in New York, everybody has really varied backgrounds. And I mean, I, I joke about it now, the first time I applied to Pink Boots, I was rejected because they said to me, we don't understand how you make your money in beer. I'm like, I'm a freelancer.
Hannah (24:49):
Oh, that is amazing. And are you still involved in Pink Boots? That's Pink Boots Society.
Ann (24:54):
Yeah. The pink boots society. Yes. Um, yeah, Mary and I helped to restart our local chapter. And obviously for the past nine months, we've absolutely been on pause since, um, literally right after the, uh, women's brew day, which is always early March. And that leads into, you know, a lot of events celebrating and supporting women in beer that happened literally the week after beer week. And that was right before we shut down in the middle of March. Um, so that's kind of been put on pause and we do have a number of women who've moved to New York from other areas of the country that had been more involved in their pink boots in other parts that we definitely want to get involved, um, and have them take over. But the idea of the New York city women in beer groups and, you know, we have a private Facebook group, so that it's a completely safe space that anything there it's only industry women. Um, we do have an Instagram account to get messaging about, um, events or education or things like that out. And then we have a Slack channel that, that seems to be the most active at the moment. And it's a great way to share resources, everything from job postings to there's a self-care channel, which that's a great idea during this, um, might be an overused term at the moment, but there's a lot of great information. Um, but the idea of New York City Women in Beerwas to create an umbrella under which the, uh, pink boots, um, which required, um, being employed in a beer in some capacity of beer and Barley's angels, which is kind of like a sister group to women who maybe, you know, are super involved and really excited about beer, but aren't presently, um, making a career of it, but perhaps hope to. And then there's also girls pint out, which is a phenomenal enthusiast group that, you know, supports all of our local breweries bars, restaurants, and is a great way to introduce, um, other women to beer
Hannah (26:40):
It's funny because I know about all of these groups, right. And I'm a part of a few of them, but to hear you kind of list them all out, it really does... It makes me grateful for all of the, exactly, like you said, safe spaces that we are creating for ourselves and not, you know, just like waiting to feel accepted by the greater beer community at large.
Ann (27:02):
Yeah. And this is an ever-changing community too. I mean, as recently as four years ago, I remember having a discussion with another woman in beer who's been heavily involved in. This was again, before I was working full time in it, where, you know, she had made a comment that there was a little bit of fatigue, um, pushing forward, getting women involved in beer. And luckily, you know, that the time of history that we're in right now is the exact opposite. It's we need to be welcoming everyone into every space, regardless of gender background, race, anything, it should be open to everyone.
Hannah (27:35):
I agree. And that actually was sort of something I was self-conscious about almost in starting this podcast, because obviously I can only speak from my experience as a cisgender white woman in the beer world, which I do still feel like, you know, there's room to be making more opportunities and inviting... Making space for women. But I'm acutely aware now more than ever that like, that's just the beginning of it. Right. How can we, especially as white women, take the privilege that we have and pass the Baton forward and kind of move that forward even more than just like in our own interests?
Ann (28:12):
Yeah. And that's something that for me anyway, regardless of what aspect I've been in, I feel like it's my responsibility because of how I present to the world as, you know, a straight white blonde lady that it's, it's my responsibility to make sure that others who aren't automatically assumed, um, access because of, you know, how they look present, whatever, um, that there is space for them and that they are welcomed because it's, as I said, I feel it's a responsibility,
Hannah (28:42):
I agree. And I, I do wonder, do you ever get tired about being asked about your experience as a , heavy air quote, woman in beer? Do you know what I mean?
Ann (28:50):
Yeah. Um, I don't get as much of that now, honestly. Um, and you know, obviously the last nine months have been very different than anything, but prior to that, yes, it was. And a lot of assumptions about styles and that kind of thing. And you know, everything from, you know, I could be geared up in tons of brewery-wear, and if I was with a white man, if I ordered a beer and he ordered a cocktail or I ordered a heavy beer and, you know, he ordered something else, inevitably the wrong drink would be put in front of me and I'm like, you can read wearing and you took order, but okay.
Hannah (29:30):
I have a Grimm, t-shirt a Fifth Hammer tote bag and like a Rockaway brewing hat on, but you're giving me a cocktail... Okay. Or even do you have the experience of ordering, You know, like let's say you order an IPA and the, whoever is server bartender is like, are you sure?
Ann (29:48):
Yeah. Or, yeah, they, and this is going back quite a ways, but you know, ordering something heavy, knowing what I was asking for and then be like, Oh, you do know XYZ. And I'm like, um, I do actually
Hannah (30:07):
In fact, I ordered that on purpose. To go back, you mentioned that beer was an enthusiasm, a hobby, if you will. How did that start for you? Did you have a gateway beer that got you into craft in general or, yeah,
Ann (30:15):
Yeah, Sort of, I mean, it's, I can remember as early as, you know, college days where you're drinking terrible light beer and it's awful, and you had no idea what diacetyl was or why it tasted as bad as it did, but early on, I was already curious about trying different things. So yeah, like the local dive bar, I'd be like, all right, let me try Guinness. And let me try Bass. And from there went to a cousin's wedding in Colorado and had Fat Tire for the first time. And that was a hands down game changer. I remember coming back to New York and quickly learning. Um, I didn't realize at the time it was called the three tier system, but that no, you can't get beer from anywhere in different States. And I'm starting to learn a little bit, I guess I should've paid a little more attention at time about the different regulations when it comes to alcohol. Um, but yeah, Fat Tire was definitely a game changer because just recognizing that it could have so much flavor compared to what I was accustomed to. And then I was probably, yeah, it was about 12, 15 to 12 years ago. It was when there started to be a significant change in, uh, here in New York city as to the availability of craft beers. You didn't have to necessarily make it a game plan to, okay, well, I can only go here if I want to drink beer with my friends, otherwise I'm going to have to drink wine or cocktails or whatever
Hannah (31:33):
You mentioned diacetyl already. And I feel like I read somewhere on your social media that, that you are uniquely attuned to that flavor. Will, you explain that?
Ann (31:44):
Sure. Um, I feel like in some of the, and I'm overdue for a sensory training, cause I feel like, uh, regularly keeping your palette attuned to what can be an off flavor as well as being able to pull out different notes from beers that that's really helpful. And that's know, as I was mentioning before, that's one of the programs that Guild offers for our members is awfully retraining. Like the, the one in particular that I always have a hard time with this metallic, for some reason, like that's the one that doesn't get me, but a, a beer that, um, is off and diacetyl is the off profile or flavor, or however you prefer to say it, basically, as soon as it's poured, I can smell it. It's one of those things where I'm like, okay, yup. That's, that's going to smell popcorn. Or like, you know, movie theater, popcorn, butter,
Hannah (32:31):
That's your superpower.
Ann (32:32):
It's an interesting superpower to have, I suppose. But like Papery is another one that, you know, it's just until I Had the vocabulary to know, would you just felt like, well, this just tastes weird and being able to figure out why it tastes weird is, is been something that's, you know, part of beer education that I find really intriguing. And I look forward to like doing flavor training on your own is kind of impossible because you know what, you're dosing your beer with. Like, you need to do it with at least one other person. So I do look forward to those coming back once we were all able to sit in the same room with people again,
Hannah (33:09):
One day soon, hopefully. So how did you go from a casual beer drinker? "Like, wow, this fat tire is really good" to offer flavor training. That seems like a leap.
Ann (33:17):
Yeah, Yeah, yeah. And th th it, it was many, many, many steps in between. Yeah. And I think it was one of those things that I'm realizing that I was more attuned to different flavors than some people and realizing that people are, uh, as I call them super tasters and can make a career out of that. I'm like, well, that's super intriguing. Um, and just learning that I think was one of the things that led me to think, okay, there are other ways that you can spend your days and it can also be your paycheck.
Hannah (33:45):
Right. I definitely feel pressure. Like you have to monetize all your hobbies and like, whatever you're good at, that's your job. But selfishly, I started this podcast because I love beer. I want to work in beer, but I'm not exactly sure where I fit. And I think that I'm probably not the only person who wonders that. So getting to talk to someone like you, who like, in my mind, coming from the service side of the industry, like you're a bartender, you brew, maybe you're in sales. But other than that, like, I don't know. So getting to hear your story, how you had an industry that you were in, and then we're able to kind of parlay those skills into an industry that you were really passionate about is Very exciting to me.
Ann (34:26):
Yeah. And that's something I feel is really important, especially if you're going to get different types of people in our industry is making people aware that there are other jobs out there. You don't need to go to brew school and you don't need to be the one selling the beer. Um, and depending on the size of the brewery, there's everything from front of house, to back of house to, I almost want to call it like upstairs of house, the office and any job you can think of in the private sector, there's a job in beer in that same role. You know, logistics, marketing, HR, as we were talking. I mean, we have a few people here in the city where their entire role is they're, the finance person at breweries. Um, and you know, there's plenty of people we know that do that as freelance, like working for a couple of breweries. And that's, for me, that was the, the path for me in, was doing a number of freelance projects, working for a variety of different breweries, just getting to know who people were and, and, and utilizing like anyone, you know, talk to them and ask how they got in or what they suggest. And that's something that I definitely believe in continuing that. Like for instance, uh, years ago, when I had first started to think, okay, well, how can I do this? I had a great conversation with Katie Lynch who was at Brooklyn brewery and talked to her about how she got involved. And she was very matter of fact, she's like, I took a job at Brooklyn brewery as an intern in college when I was going to NYU and I've never left. And her role there kept growing and changing while she was there. And that's the thing too, is once you are, you know, working somewhere, your role can change and you can even jump from one Avenue to another. Like for instance, if you're working in a restaurant and you decide you are involved, you want to get involved with beer, you can work with the team on helping select the beer menu or even pairings. And then from there, decide if that's something you really interested in, how do you want to move forward? If you want to work in a brewery? Like I have a younger cousin who is finishing up, I think it's her last semester of college, um, with a science major. And she's like, what am I good at? Well, this was pre pandemic. Obviously there's lots of science jobs, but, um, you know, I remember talking with her and be like, you can be a scientist and work for a brewery. Like everybody has varying degrees of QC and lots of breweries have their own labs, like full on actual labs to, you know, maintain quality and grow their own yeast strains. There's so many different types of jobs
Hannah (36:49):
That is very inspiring to know. I am not a science person. And that's coincidentally, one of the things that I've allowed to be a roadblock sometimes, cause I'm like, well, I'm not a science person. I can't brew, but very fascinating to think about, um, working in the lab of brewery. Like what a fun job.
Ann (37:03):
Yeah. Right. Yeah. I'm not either art school. I'm clearly not a science person.
Hannah (37:07):
My BFA did not cover any chemistry as it turns out. Um, I don't know if this is too personal of a question, but I often wonder working in the alcohol industry, you know, to put it in those terms, has it changed your relationship to alcohol and to beer? Like now that it's part of your job?
Ann (37:27):
Um, I wouldn't say it has actually, um, I mean I recognize the number of people where it has, and I know plenty of people who will do so we're October or dry January. Um, you know, I have seen people in my life where I'm like, okay, maybe it is a problem. Um, but it is important and it is something that people should be, I guess, attuned to as much as possible. If, you know, if it's something that, you know, you feel like, okay, well, one day last year I had a really bad experience or, you know, I know that I overdid it. It's, you know, being, I guess, being aware and attune and also keeping an eye on your friends and your colleagues to make sure that they are also okay.
Hannah (38:05):
I agree. It's very important to take care of yourself, but take care of each other. And on the topic of festivals, I think a lot of people go into those types of things. Like I'm just going to get trashed. That's their intention because those four ounce tasters, you think it's not a lot, but it's a lot even coming from the perspective of opening bash, you know, I want to try all these amazing breweries and then an hour. And you're like, Oh, I can't get home.
Ann (38:29):
Yeah. Yeah. That was something last year for opening bash. And we had, I guess, done our first run it last year at Blocktoberfest, making sure we had safety advocates. Um, and these are people who are in the industry and can be aware of what's going on in the crowd. And if they see something that just looks unusual, just make sure, making sure they're keeping an eye on it. And you know, someone who has obviously had too much that they're not standing somewhere by themselves or that people that weren't with them 10 minutes ago aren't suddenly with them, you know, all kinds of aspects of safety. We made that a priority for our festivals, especially being in New York city. This is something we really want to be attuned to and set guidelines and set parameters for so that it can just be a, a given that, you know, if someone attends one of our beer festivals or, you know, with a partner of ours, that they know that they're going to be safe and that there won't be an issue
Hannah (39:23):
Makes me feel very warm and fuzzy. And it makes me look even more forward to the next NYC brewers Guild festival that I am legally able to attend- vaccine pending
Ann (39:34):
Yeah. Yeah.
Hannah (39:37):
I don't know. This might be dark. Like, do you see festivals coming up
Ann (39:40):
Differently? And one of the things we had been working on, um, in between Blocktoberfest and Opening Bash last year was expanding our reach and doing smaller, um, festivals and events. Like one of the things we had wanted to do was, and maybe do it in the Bronx or Queens, like do it because most beer fests are in Manhattan and Brooklyn. And, you know, it's rare when one is held in one of the outer boroughs and you're also going to reach a different group of beer drinkers and, you know, people who maybe aren't so sure they want to attend to beer Fest. So we've been looking at possibly doing like a beer in hip hop themed event. Um, and we were working with, uh, Chris Maestro of Bierwax and, you know, had even put together like a whole proposal to try and get a grant for that. Um, and that's something that we're like, all right, well now we know going forward, at least for the foreseeable future, I think anyone is going to be, at least for the first half of 2021, for sure people, are going to be concerned about going anywhere with a few hundred other people. Um, so this is a great opportunity for us to move forward with that idea of doing smaller, um, more personalized festivals where, you know, the entry fee is less similar to what we do for Blocktoberfest. It's a small entry fee, and then you, you can choose how much beer you want to taste, um, try enjoy. And that would be more instead of paying, you know, 65, 75, a hundred dollars for a beer Fest ticket of unlimited pores. And it's four hours of unlimited pours. I, I think that's definitely going to change for the foreseeable future, at least for '21 and '22
Hannah (41:10):
Reframe. That actually makes me feel more positive, to be honest, because as great as it is, um, you know, I know Blocktoberfest was online this year and it was great, like two weekends of all day content and videos and, you know, live streams and stuff. There is something to be said for being in person and getting to engage with the community and meet new people.
Hannah (41:30):
Right. Yeah. It's part of the experience of beer. It's, you know, it's one thing to crack open something different in your apartment than it is to experience it with other people and, you know, getting feedback from other people, what they're tasting that you might not have. And you're like, Oh, I couldn't put your finger on it.
Hannah (41:45):
Right. It's a team effort. Beer is a team sport. That's cheesy y'all that's cheesy.
Ann (41:51):
Not at all.
Hannah (41:51):
Um, I don't want to take up too much more of your time, but I do like to end every episode with a little quickfire challenge. So here we go. What is the most overrated beer style in your opinion?
Ann (42:06):
See, I know that's tough. I don't want to demean anyone and overrated as a tough one. I think maybe misinterpreted would be how I would describe it. And I say that because a lot of people getting them into craft beer typically now, um, it's through a hazy IPA is what gets them there. So I know that there's a lot of misguided vitriol pointed out that particular style, but it's more engaging people and sorry, this went from rapid fire to long answer.
Hannah (42:39):
I shouldn't expect to ask you a question about the nitty-gritty beer style and have a short answer. I want it. I want the deets. No, but I I'm with you that like it's easy. I don't, I'm not really in the like online world of beer so much with like Twitter and untapped is not like my medium so much, but people can get people get mean, but I agree.
Ann (43:01):
Yeah. I mean, I was just reading one before we came on this call that, uh, so it was tearing apart a schwarzbier. And because it wasn't heavy enough and it wasn't this and I'm like, but do you know what a schwarzbier style is before you get on that Hill to die on what it's not.
Hannah (43:20):
Right. Don't go to a schwarzbier when you're looking for a Porter.
Ann (43:23):
Right. Yeah.
Hannah (43:24):
Thank you. I hope you're listening. Whoever you are. Okay. Cake or pie?
Ann (43:29):
Um, pie, although I would go with cookies over both.
Hannah (43:32):
Me too. I'm team cookies.
Ann (43:34):
Yeah. I'm a hundred percent team cookies over either of those options.
Hannah (43:37):
Ok well follow up. Not on the quickfire, just for my personal edification. Where's your go-to cookie spot in the city.
Ann (43:45):
I don't know that I have one, although I've been seeing those Ovenly boxes look amazing.
Hannah (43:50):
Their salted chocolate. It's vegan. Not that I care, but it's really good. This is not a dessert podcast, but I'm personally very passionate about it. Okay. What do you feel like the most underrated or maybe underappreciated beer style is
Ann (44:03):
Absolutely it's lagers those not in the industry. Think of it as you know, like when they- many and I don't want to paint with broad brush, but many because their first introduction to lager was like coors lighter, bud light at a keg party when they were, you know, 18 or whatever, or sorry, 21. Um, they understanding the process behind making a really good lager that lagering time takes time to make something good. And you know, some will take up to six weeks. So that tank time, especially here in New York city where real estate is, uh, incredibly valuable, any brewery that's willing to let 30 barrels of beer sit for six weeks when they could have turned it three times with an ale it's definitely under appreciated. And people assuming, well, lagers should be cheaper. It says less ingredients. I'm like, that's not how beer works, but I understand where they're coming from. And I feel like that's on us in the beer industry to better educate the consumer as to what is involved with brewing and that big beers that, um, when they claim they have four ingredients and not one of them is yeast. That's a huge, that makes me incensed. We're not mentioning
Hannah (45:08):
We're not mentioning any names... Beechwood, aging,
Ann (45:10):
Hey, they put it on their packaging. So....
Hannah (45:12):
If you're not bragging about your yeast, then your lager, isn't good. What, what do your friends come to you for?
Ann (45:19):
My non-industry friends always want to know what will they like? And based on, you know, a few of them I've known for years, I want to know what we've, you know, it was partial to, um, particular kinds of wine and other I've gotten her into IPA's and for her, the gateway was the hazies, but she has learned to prefer the, um, the slightly hazy pale ale. Like she's gotten really, she stepped up her game. I also will have a number of people will ask me what's new. Um, you know, who should I look out for? Who's up and coming. Um, who am I overlooking? Things like that.
Hannah (45:52):
I love that. What is your favorite thing, If you can remember that you ever overheard at, at the bar or at the brewery?
Ann (45:58):
That's a tough one. No, uh, in a similar vein, one of my all time, favorite New York city beer events, and we recreated it for Blocktoberfest this year was brewers read their bad reviews, kind of like, you know, celebrities read their mean tweets. And for like Dan Bronson from single cup created this back at four Queens beer week, a number of years ago at Crescent and Vine in Astoria. And they had, you know, like a big band who even did little, um, you know, uh, trombone and drum rolls up to go along with it. And yeah, it was so I guess I can share someone. Else's probably favorite story. Tanya Kolb of Transmitter. This was when transmitter was in their original space, which didn't have a taproom. And this was in, they're still only doing CSA. And she had some guy come in and give her this lengthy, horrible Yelp review about her being a terrible bartender, not offering flights. He went on and on and on and on like, but none of those things were offered at that point.
Hannah (46:57):
"Do you know where you are?"
Ann (46:57):
It was under the Transmitter bridge and they had a counter where you could come and pick up your CSA.
Hannah (47:02):
And they egregiously didn't have flights there.
Ann (47:05):
They didn't have a tap system. How are they going to have flights?
Hannah (47:07):
Well, you know what, constructive criticism. Okay. What was the last show that you binged and loved?
Ann (47:13):
Ooh, I really just got into the, The Flight Attendant and watched all three episodes. Like I watched episode four last night, but I'd watched all three episodes at once. And I also have recently done The Crown as well as The Undoing. I was intrigued by the final episode, I have to say, I don't want to give any spoilers away, but that was not what I was expecting.
Hannah (47:34):
I've heard a lot of buzz about that. I need to watch it. If nothing else for Nicole Kidman's coats. What is your desert Island beer? If you had to pick one
Ann (47:42):
Desert Island, to me means something that you're going to be okay with drinking every single day for the rest of your life
Hannah (47:48):
Forever. So not dissimilar to your quarantine beer, I guess.
Ann (47:52):
And in the beginning of the quarantine, I drank exclusively New York city beer. So I haven't gone too far afield from that. But yeah, for the first several months, I wasn't drinking anything if it wasn't made here. Yeah. So some of our local lagers have definitely gotten me through and some of the, uh, you know, like helles styles, um, that are available all the time or some of the Mexican lagers made here. Any of those
Hannah (48:14):
You're allowed, you can bring a New York city brewers Guild, beer box to your desert Island. We make the rules in this hypothetical scenario. This might be a mean question, but pandemic, not withstanding. If you could get on a plane right now and go anywhere, where would you go?
Ann (48:28):
I'm dying to go back to Copenhagen.
Hannah (48:29):
Yes. Love that. And then finally, I know we're just indulging in water and seltzer, but, and Riley, I'm so appreciative of you taking the time to talk to me. If you could take us out with a toast.
Ann (48:43):
Sure. Cheers to New York city beers,
Hannah (48:46):
Cheers to New York city beers! And she rhymed at no less. Amazing. Thank you so much.
Ann (48:51):
Thank you Hannah, this was great. I appreciate your time. Thanks.
Hannah (49:00):
Cheers to New York city beers. If that doesn't inspire you to check out the New York City Brewers Guild website and learn more about how you can get in on the last half of NYC beer week, I don't know what will. While you're over there, pick yourself up some merch and keep your eyes out for more info on the scholarship initiatives that Ann and I spoke about. I've also linked in the show notes, the website for the Michael James Jackson Foundation for Brewing and Distilling that we talked about head over there to learn more about that incredible scholarship as well. I am so grateful to Ann for taking the time to talk to me. She is so grounded and generous, and I feel so inspired to keep burrowing into my little niche in this big, beautiful industry. Make sure you follow her @NYCCraftBeer on Instagram. Seriously. She is a great follow. I'm talking resources. I'm talking cat pictures. What's not to love?! As always thank you to Megan Bagala for our music and Sabrina Rain at The Hoppiest Shop for our graphics. And of course to you, my beer friends, thank you. I love getting to share these stories with you and getting to learn together. And speaking and learning together, I've got some special content coming to your podcasts feeds in honor of women's history month. So stay tuned for that next week. In the meantime, keep subscribing, keep reviewing and keep following along on the old Instagram, stay hydrated. My friends. Bye.