In part two of her conversation with Wild East Cellar person and Cicerone Certified Beer Server Robyn G. Williams, Hannah grabs a Zero Gravity 40 Thieves and Robyn cracks open a Wild East Life on Marz.
Go check out Robyn's handiwork and visit her at Wild East Brewing at 623 Sackett St. in Brooklyn ...bonus points if you bring her a Monster Sugar Free
Black Brew Culture helped Robyn pass her Cicerone Certified Beer Server test and is working toward the next level of Certified Cicerone with the help of Beer Kulture and their "This Ain't The Beer That You're Used To" Scholarship. Learn more about how to apply and how to donate here!
Check out this link to learn more about the Cicerone Certification Program!
Groovy music by Megan Bagala, and art by Sabrina Grimes at The Hoppiest Shop
Hannah (00:06):
Intro: Hi again, beer friends. It's me, your host Hannah Kiem. And this is Brews with Broads, a podcast that celebrates and elevates the stories of women and non-binary people in beer this week. I am so stoked to bring you part two of my conversation with Robyn G Williams, or as you might know her on the old Instagram at black craft beer NYC. Last time we left off with a little moment of hospitality, teammate love. It certainly got me all verklempt this week. You'll meet back up with our conversation where we continue to track. Robyn's incredible journey jumping from front of house to back of house, to brew house all across the New York city beer scene and her experience as seller person at wild East. And of course the road to Cicerone that she's currently walking on. We also touch on ideas of gender expression and identity in our industry and somehow inexplicably beard, grooming tips, side note, all of my beard, having listeners I love and respect you. You'll hear what I'm talking about when you listen any who here is part two of my conversation with Robyn G Williams. Enjoy.
Hannah (01:15):
Oh, okay. Wait. We're choosing between a People Power and the Life on Marz. The Marzen from Wild East. Oh, I pick the Life on Marz. (Beer can cracking sound) Oh, baby we got the crack. We got the crack halfway through. I love it. And the pour she's got good technique. You all can't see, but she's pouring like a champ, obviously.
Robyn (01:34):
I'm a Certified Beer server. Okay.
Hannah (01:35):
Yes, we need to get to that. Okay. So you were at Alewife, you worked managing their taproom, like a f***king bad-ass and then what?
Robyn (01:45):
Uh, managed at, um, the Rochard for, for a good amount of time also. So after Alewife and Rochard world, I was at Interboro for a little bit doing production work, they said they needed some help on the canning line. And I said, well, I got time,
Hannah (02:04):
Was that a challenging leap for you to go from front of house, to, to canning line? What was that like?
Robyn (02:11):
No, not at all. I like manual labor. I really enjoy it as much as it comes naturally for me to speak to people and connect with people. I also really enjoy doing physical work. So for anyone that's worked in the canning line before, you know, those days can be long and it's gratifying work. But aside from drinking the beer that comes fresh off the line, you know, you're, you're, you're kind of the, the core of how the beer gets out to the world
Hannah (02:41):
Yeah, you're the conduit. I never thought about it in that way. Do they have their own canning line or do they do mobile canning?
Robyn (02:47):
They do have their own canning line. Her name is Christine.
Hannah (02:51):
The canning line?
Robyn (02:51):
Yeah, the canning line's name is Christine.
Hannah (02:54):
Hey, Christine.
Robyn (02:56):
Shoutout to Christine. Uh, yeah, I learned a lot at, Interboro had a really good time working there. Mike taught me a lot. Duff taught me a lot Benji. Um, when, uh, when Jesse and more around picked up a lot of jumps from them. So it was, it was a good time working there as well. They also got me into a little bit of the back of house work. Having worked Front of House, worked in a home D there there's more of the, um, of the beer world that I wanted to learn about. And, uh, you know, there were open to, uh, to sharing and teaching me, so learned when a good number of things there. So had a good time working at Interboro,
Hannah (03:37):
I don't know what a home D is.
Robyn (03:39):
So Uh, so, so Prospect Heights Beer Works like beer stores. It's like a, like a old school word for like, like a beer warehouse, but it's called home distributor where you buy, you buy your domestic, uh, your, your import and your craft.
Hannah (03:56):
Great. Yeah. At, to this point, you kind of had your hands in a lot of the parts of the industry and the people at Interborough kind of helped shepherd you and guide you in the brewing process. Also, they kind of like let you in on that?
Robyn (04:09):
Yeah, Absolutely. Um, sometimes canning days and, um, and brewing days would overlap. So any question that I had, uh, I would ask, uh, you know, Schafer when he was there, Adam, and they were happy to answer any questions that I had thankfully learned a lot from them. And they're very patient and happy to answer all my questions
Hannah (04:29):
Again, a case of people just being really cool and ready to advocate for you and like taking the time. Cause that's a big challenge for me. I know when I go into new situations, you actually don't seem this way. You seem to be like really open to asking questions, but I always feel like I don't want to like come off. Like, I don't know anything, so I don't want to ask, but I think that's a real strength to be able to say like, Hey, I actually don't know this. Can you teach me?
Robyn (04:53):
Thank you. That's I take that is as a compliment as a very high compliment.
Hannah (04:57):
Of course. So from Interboro, is that when you made the leap to Wild East or was there even more in between?
Robyn (05:04):
There, there is no In between them. Yeah. After Interboro my next position was at Wild East.
Hannah (05:10):
Amazing. And that's in Wild East in Gowanus
Robyn (05:13):
I consider it to be Park Slope. I grew up here, so I'm like, it's Park Slope but, but yeah, whatever, whatever they call it now. Sure.
Hannah (05:23):
I'd stand with I, whatever you say, parks slope, it's in park slope, people get it. Right. So how, what was that transition like? Did you get hired immediately as front of house or back of house as well?
Robyn (05:34):
So I, I bartend and I also work in the brew house at Wild East, which is, um, really dope. I really enjoy still being able to have that interaction with customers and being customer facing and talking about beer and selling beer and making connections that that's just my background in the hospitality and retail world. And I also work in the brewhouse. So I guess my, my actual title is Cellar Person. So maintaining the equipment, doing cleaning processes, assisting on brew days maintaining the upkeep of, of the brewery and the equipment handling chemicals handling 180 to 190 degree water, all those things. So definitely, um, is a parallel of working in the bar to, to doing kind of a specialized type of work in the back of the house. I enjoy them both very much so, really happy at Wild East. These, I feel like it's almost full circle. It's like everything that I've been doing throughout my whole working life as an adult, and then also learning something new every day, learning something new in, in the back of the house, but then also bringing it in with what I already know about beer.
Hannah (07:04):
I wanted to ask you what the typical day is like, but it doesn't sound like there is a typical day. It sounds like every day is kind of different.
Robyn (07:12):
I'm mostly in the brew house, but, um, I do a day of bartending
Hannah (07:18):
To me like the brewing element. I'm so not like a sciency person or like, I get nervous about doing things wrong. So the idea of brewing really intimidates me. So I'm really interested to know what a typical, like a brew day looks like for you.
Robyn (07:32):
Well, on, on the days that we do brew, long days, for sure starts with me coming in, uh, to support the brewer, Brett, shout out to Brett ["Bretowsky, Brettanomyces"] Taylor yeah. Starts with me, uh, coming in to support him in, in the process where wherever he's at. So he, he could be just finishing mashing. He could be well into mashing, but more or less he is he's on the hot side and I'm on the cold side. Uh, so the cold side is like the tanks. So I'm getting the tank ready for, for the, uh, the wort to go in. I'll be doing the, uh, the sanitizing process on the tank. So it's fully ready for him to go in with the fresh hot wort and it can just be a seamless process.
Hannah (08:23):
Great.
Robyn (08:24):
So that's a brew day. And then once, once that happens, I mean, how do you think you, uh, you get all that lovely wort, people? From pounds and pounds and pounds of grain and all the grain is left in the mash tun. And that's when we start the monster mash, I've, uh, documented this process well on my uh, on my beer Instagram page. And, um, I drink a monster, a monster energy drink. Sugar-free if anyone wants to bring me one, I drink monster sugar-free only. And I grain out, I get all the grain out of the mash tun and, uh, get it all into the bins,
Hannah (09:06):
Drinks, only monster sugar-free and then explain again what it means to grain out.
Robyn (09:11):
So in, in the mash tun where the, where we are extracting all the sugar from the grain, after which point you, uh, transfer that liquid from the mash tun into the boil where you're adding your hops, what's left behind is the liquid that you did not transfer over into the boil and the grain. So it's mostly grain and that grain has to go somewhere. So the mash out, it sounds really cool, but you're, uh, you're shoveling mash, grainy mash into many, many pails. And then Mr. T comes in carts it away, many hours later
Hannah (09:50):
Love Mr. T disposal service
Robyn (09:52):
Important part of the process. But it, that that's the most manual labor part of Brew Day
Hannah (09:59):
Important, but maybe not so glamorous, but a good workout shoveling basically just like pounds. Tons of oatmeal. Yeah. I was going to say, Robyn has some guns right now. I have my tickets. To the gun show... That dad joke it occurred? It seems like you're probably a part of, most of the beers we see coming out of wild East. But do you have a favorite one that you've worked on
Robyn (10:21):
A favorite beer that I've been a part of broody for is patience and fortitude. So that's the Czech pils lager
Hannah (10:28):
Nice. Very, crushable a lot of burps coming off of that one.
Robyn (10:32):
It's, uh, was very recently, um, transferred from the, um, the fermentor to the Brite tank. So it will, it will be out in the world again very soon but until then I'll be enjoying many tank pours
Hannah (10:47):
Ooh, that is definitely a major benefit of your job is tank pours. Do you feel like it tastes better straight from the tank?
Robyn (10:55):
I don't, I don't think it is better. It tastes different. It is really good. We have this thing , at, at work where we say Tank pours are overrated because they kind of are. Like, it's really good, but like, it's really good in the can. It's really good off the line. It's really good from the draft. It's all really good. If the beer is really good, it's going to be really good any way it comes.
Hannah (11:21):
Period. End of story. I love wild East and they have a great outdoor setup too. So if you're in the city, check it out. It's amazing to listen to your trajectory from craft beer, sort of novice to like having a major hand in brewing beer. Do you ever see yourself opening a brewery one day or anything like that?
Robyn (11:39):
A wise man named Justin Bieber said, "I will never say never." And I agree with that. I will never say never. It's not necessarily something that, that I'm presently working toward, but I don't never say
Hannah (11:54):
Never. Now, obviously this is a podcast about women in beer and about inclusion, but do you feel like almost tired of having that conversation? Are you tired of talking about your identity within being a beer professional or, you know what I mean? Or you just like want to talk about the craft?
Robyn (12:13):
I don't really get that question. Um, about being a woman in beer. I mean, I'll, I'll speak candidly for a moment. I don't know if it's because I present more masculine or because I'm not just a woman, but I am also a Black woman. So to that, I will say I haven't really gotten that specific inquiry personally.
Hannah (12:47):
I mean, that brings up a lot, obviously not only the discussion of gender and gender expression and how I definitely feel like, I don't know, you see kind of camps of women and beer of like, Oh, here's a beer can between my tits or here I am wearing Carharrt,
Robyn (13:04):
(Robyn laughs and continues laughing)
Hannah (13:04):
like, there's definitely middle ground and all of the above is valid, but it definitely brings that up. (Hannah laughs) Is that good with, we gotta laugh, honestly, you know, I'm an actor. All I want is for people to laugh at me.
Robyn (13:21):
Do you identify more as a comedienne than an actress?
Hannah (13:24):
Oh That's a good question. I think so.
Robyn (13:28):
Now the interviewee has become the interviewer
Robyn (13:28):
I know the tables have turned! But you do bring up a point that I definitely want to talk about, about representation and being a Black Woman in beer, because I feel like for as many women as there are in beer and like how that has been, I think a fight for representation and inclusion. We're now at a point in our culture where we need to be focusing on racial inclusivity and not only just saying like, "Oh yeah, the is open to you", but inviting people in to breweries and to beer culture and to being beer professionals, to whom the door might not have been flung open before
Robyn (14:03):
Yeah. I mean, absolutely beer is legit, the oldest alcoholic beverage. So all types of people have been enjoying beer since the beginning of time. So yeah, obviously,
Hannah (14:18):
Right.
Robyn (14:18):
Not obviously to you like Obviously to anyone that feels like, you know, anyone does doesn't long and beer, it's a beverage.
Hannah (14:26):
Absolutely. It's a beverage, it's a drink, but it's also that age old story. I feel like of like there were alewives in , you know, what we now know is the Middle East and Mesopotamia and an Africa making beers. And somehow along the way, it's become westernized. And only for white guys with nexk beards to make, you know, and like, that's not the origin,
Robyn (14:47):
Let's make this distinction perfectly clear: neck beards have no place in craft beer. (Hannah Laughs). Your beard has to be well-groomed and trimmed and taken care of. If you have a neck beard that, that that's not a beer problem, that's, that's a, you grooming problem. That's like, if you don't have a shape up and your, your hair, your neck hair is connected to your back hair, that is no one's problem. But yourselves, this is where we're at.
Hannah (15:15):
And these are the hard hitting issues that we're getting at here, people. Today.
Robyn (15:19):
The record, I don't have any of the gentlemen that I have had the pleasure of working with. None of them have ever had neck beards. They've all been very, well-groomed welcoming hygienic individuals and yes, no place for neck beards in craft beer.
Hannah (15:36):
Thank you for saying that. And I apologize to anyone, any bearded individuals for generalizing about you because that's not fair truly. That's not, but
Robyn (15:46):
But a lot of you all have beards though. Nothing wrong with that, but a lot of y'all have beards,
Robyn (15:51):
Keep them clean. People, keep the beards clean. Not talking about, but on the topic of you and your advanced knowledge, talk to me about your Cicerone own journey.
Robyn (16:03):
I became a Certified Beer Server in May of this year. So, um, thanks to Black Brew Culture, uh, based out of, uh, Pittsburgh, Mike Potter, uh, shout out to Mike Potter. Uh, he had a partnership with a Cicerone in a spring of this year, in the height of quarantine where you could do the virtual certified beer server class, um, 40 bucks. And you also, you know, got, got some other extra perks. And, you know, in March, April, May, what were we all doing? We were all at home doing nothing. So it was something that I thought about doing for years before. And in April, May of this year, it was something that I'd finally had the time to do. So I signed up with the Black Brew Culture, certified beer server collaboration and, uh, became a certified beer server thankfully to, uh, to Neil Witte. Uh, Woody's very thorough beer server training classes that started promptly at 10:00 AM for four days, passed the test on my first try, you know, got instilled the knowledge that that I had had in practice, but reinforced it with, with more facts and more tactile information. So, uh, very grateful to BLack Brew Culture and Cicerone and Neil Witte for making themselves during that time for myself. But it had always been a goal of mine to become a Certified Beer Server and a one day hopefully to become a Cicerone. As many of us may know, the Cicerone process is quite expensive and it is a little time consuming, but what are the ways that you can get that, that information is by working in the field and working in a brewery, working in a taproom XYZ, but there's also a lot of different components that provide you with the knowledge that encompasses being a Cicerone, fortunately to Beer Kulture. They had a scholarship that they were offering to anyone that wanted to become a Certified Beer Server or a level two Cicerone. And I applied for level two and I was gratefully granted a scholarship for a Cicerone. So I'm now officially embarking on that journey. I've been doing my own, studying my own research along with working in the world of beer, always tasting beer, always trying new things and taking notes and expanding my knowledge. But now I am officially on the road to Cicerone.
Hannah (19:17):
That's incredible. And that is for people who don't know and super big accomplishment and a challenging test. So I definitely hope you'll keep me, us, the listeners updated on that journey because that's huge, but that's a huge accomplishment and I definitely am excited for you because I think I would be interested to hear what you have to say about this. I think that, you know, working in the industry for as long as you have, I often wonder the weight behind Cicerone and what it carries for different people. And, you know, as opposed to like being a Sommelier, you can't be called a Sommelier unless you've taken these classes and pass these tests. Whereas like you can work in beer no matter what. So I think it demonstrates like an extra level of commitment to say, like, you know what, I'm going to spend this money. I'm going to spend this time and I'm going to study my tits off because really that's what you got to do. What does Cicerone mean to you? Because it's not like necessary to get a lot of the jobs that you've had, but obviously it's important enough to you to spend the time on it.
Robyn (20:22):
I can only speak to my experience. So for me, Cicerone, or, or even being Certified Beer Berver was in a qualification that was asked of me. However, I do feel like depending on where you are, what type of region you're in, like what, what type of beer culture you have in your location, it might be necessary. Um, for me specifically into very intense, it's very specific. And it challenges what you think you know about beer because working behind the bar and working in front of house, everyone has their own style and way of how they describe something to someone. But when you do Beer Server, Cicerone, advanced, Beer Judge, it's not just your way. You're, you're getting the actual way. So it's equipping you with, with more in your arsenal to, to educate other people. So for me, it's not just what I'm going to gain from it. It's what I'm going to be able to share with my peers, with my customers, with friends and family. And it's just another layer of the onion that you're peeling back because you know, food is, is my first and true love. You can peel back the layers of an onion forever and ever if you're going as thin as you could possibly go, it's hundreds of layers. So Cicerone is just more layers of that onion, but as far, and as deep as you go is how thin and in depth you're getting into that.
Hannah (22:21):
That's an incredibly generous way to look at it that I've never thought of that. Like, it's not just for your own advancement. In fact, it's for your ability to communicate about this thing you're passionate about to your peers and to your customers. Oh, you're wise, you're a wise owl. Okay. I have a couple more questions and then we're going to do my favorite part, which is the quickfire round. If there was anything you could tell your five years ago, Robyn, what would you say to her?
Robyn (22:50):
I would tell her you're doing the right thing right now. And don't take anything too seriously.
Hannah (22:58):
Hmm. Honestly, I'll take that. I could take that for myself. And is there anything you want five years from now, Robyn to know
Robyn (23:06):
I mean (chuckles), in theory, everything that, that we're doing now, or everything that I'm doing now is, is so me in three and five years is good and happy and that I could look back on five years from then and say, I made the right choice. Um, I was happy. We can't see into the future. So you just, just have to prepare for it as well.
Hannah (23:33):
Once again, very wise, great advice for future you and present me! Before we go into our quick fire. I just want to thank you so much for talking to me. I have really loved getting to know you and I truly can't wait to come visit you at Wild East and drink all the amazing beers that you've helped make. In the meantime, where can people find you on the internet? Where can we follow you and find out about Kicks and Kegs, virtual events that are going to be happening ?
Robyn (24:00):
Well, I have a personal, uh, beer page on Instagram @BlackCraftBeerNYC shout out to Ann Riley @CraftBeerNYC was already taken. So I just put, so, uh, that's, that's my personal professional beer page and my business page is @TheKicksandKegs.
Hannah (24:26):
Okay, amazing. Alright. So Robyn G Williams, quick fire challenge. Here we go. What is the most overrated beer style?
Robyn (24:33):
Double dry hopped IPA.
Hannah (24:35):
That is a hot take. And frankly, I'm here for it. Cake or pie.
Robyn (24:39):
Pie.
Hannah (24:40):
What kind?
Robyn (24:43):
Cause 'Merica.
Hannah (24:44):
Cause 'Merica. Most underrated beer style?
Robyn (24:49):
Hmmmm. Maybe, maybe a MIld. Or like a Wee Scotch. Yeah.
Hannah (24:53):
MMMm. Okay. Cicerone. Wee Scotch.
Robyn (24:59):
It's from the Isles, that's all. Can't hide it.
Hannah (25:00):
"It's from the isles" said with the accent, ,mmm! what do your friends come to you for? Like, if I were to say like "That Robyn, she is...", What would your friends say?
Robyn (25:09):
Food and money.
Hannah (25:10):
Food and money! What are, what else is there in life? What's your favorite thing you've ever overheard from behind the bar?
Robyn (25:19):
Oh my gosh. Um, honestly I try very hard to tune people out. So anything that I overhear I'm like, I didn't hear that it has nothing to do with me,
Hannah (25:31):
Honestly, the mark of a professional I'm too nosy. I think. What's the last show that you binged and loved?
Robyn (25:37):
American Horror Story: 1984.
Hannah (25:41):
Ooh, Ryan Murphy. I haven't seen that one yet.
Robyn (25:45):
And, and also Nurse Ratched.
Hannah (25:47):
Oh yeah. Sarah Paulson,
Robyn (25:48):
If there's anything remotely Queer, Ryan Murphy is involved in it.
Hannah (25:53):
I would co-sign. I feel like that's very true. Very true. This is mean for COVID times, but COVID not withstanding. If you could get on a plane and go anywhere right now, where would it be?
Robyn (26:03):
New Orleans.
Hannah (26:05):
Oh yes. Food and beverage. Dream town.
Robyn (26:09):
And Music and culture and warm, but not too hot. It's it's probably my favorite place in America.
Hannah (26:19):
Honestly. You've got me on board. I'm ready to go.
Robyn (26:22):
Let's Go. Flights are cheap!
Hannah (26:24):
Yeah, they are. And finally, Robyn, can you take us out with a toast? Should we raise a glass? Do you have a favorite toast?
Robyn (26:35):
Oh, I'm meant to say one. Oh, okay. Um, so, so remember the, uh, did you see the, the, uh, Fyre Festival documentary?
Hannah (26:45):
Yes.
Robyn (26:47):
So, so Ja Rules, like "Here's to F**king like porn stars and live in like rockstars"
Hannah (26:57):
Here's to f**king like porn stars and living like rock stars. Cheers to that.
Robyn (27:02):
No, I mean, I that's the only one that, that I could think of, like off the top of my head,
Hannah (27:07):
I mean, say no more, it's incredible.
Robyn (27:10):
Something much more profound when I'm no long down the road of lager land, people. So please, excuse me.
Hannah (27:18):
Well, I'm so honored to have gone down the road of lager land with you. Thank you so much for talking to me and I can't wait to see you in real life very soon. Thank you so much.
Robyn (27:31):
Thanks for having me. It's been amazing chatting with you. Um, always amazing to connect with with other amazing ladies in beer.
Hannah (27:46):
Outro: Isn't Robin, an absolute joy. Like I said to her in our interview, I really do admire her ability to jump between back in front of house with such ease. Seriously. Not a lot of people can do that. And her willingness to try new things without being afraid of asking questions, I could definitely afford to take a page out of her book. Like she mentioned, Robyn earned her Cicerone Certified Beer Server title with the help of the people at Black Brew Culture and is currently pursuing the next level certified Cicerone with a scholarship through Beer Kultur. And their "This Ain't the Beer That You're Used To" program. Check out the link in the show notes to learn how to apply or how to donate to the scholarship fund. And speaking of education after this week's episode, it's clear that I certainly to brush up on my brewing knowledge. If you're in that same boat with me, do not stress. I'm working on a little project that will help us all learn together. I'm so grateful to Robyn for taking the time to talk to me, be sure to follow her @BlackCraftBeerNYC and @TheKicksandKegs to see what she's up to. As always, thank you to Megan Bagala for our music and to Sabrina at the Hoppiest Shop for our graphic. And of course, thank you for listening. If you want to continue to support this year, pod aka recording in my closet, please hit me with a rating and review so that we can find more beer friends! I'll be back in two weeks with another conversation with a bad-ass of the beer world. In the meantime, I'll see you on the 'gram at @BrewsiwthBroads. Bye.